Too often, however, churches are not a context for making disciples so much as occasions for acknowledging relative strangers. Experience teaches that there is also an inverse ratio at work: the larger the group, the more inevitable the superficiality of our relationships. Instead of churches growing beyond the point of being able to sustain meaningful life-on-life family relationships, an alternative (and maybe essential) strategy would be to begin new congregations through church planting. (page 111)
from "Church Matters" blog
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9 comments:
I agree. Well stated with “churches are not a context for making disciples so much as occasions for acknowledging relative strangers”.
Question to play with: When is a Church too big?
I still think that these mega-churches can be functional in developing the body and making disciples through Sunday School. In these Sunday School classes (or in some cases, small group Bible Studies) the relationships develope and the function is as God intended for the Church. What you end up with is a group of many little churches gathering for worship on Sunday morning.
worm ~
I don’t think this is,necessarily, a biblical answer. I think we can look to experience to give us a pretty good answer. The number of churches that are around 100-200 attendees far outnumber all the other churches combine. I think this is solid grounds to assume that the vast majority of people in these churches feel they are getting their needs met in significant ways (weather biblically solid fellowship or not). And in most of these congregations the 2 or 3 leaders in that congregation are able to, with diligence, know each of the families in a significant way. The family that attends a larger congregation (over 200) is far less likely to have the Elders really know them to the point of being able to pray and apply the gospel to their lives in specific ways. This is the work of the congregation as a whole but not to the exclusion of the Elders.
Steve ~
Mega-churches have, in every case I know of, abandoned the roles of elders as being the primary teachers of truth in the congregation. Sunday School teachers in every church I have seen do not possess the calling and character that we see described in the pastoral epistles for elders yet we have given them the responsiblies of the elders. The role of the deacon, therefore, is also misunderstood and even substitued by the Sunday School class or Bible study group. A re-thinking through the role of Elders and Deacons in a congregation either within the framework of Sunday Schools but especially in relation to the entire congregation "is as God intended" the Church to be structured & a better model that will force us to better disciple smaller congregations, seek out more God-called leadership (Elders/Deacons), and plant more congregations.
Shane-
I agree with what you said about the size question. I have had this discusion with my Elder Mike Feather, and his elders from his previous body. They agree with you too, once you cant properly function as a family (i.e. elders KNOW each family/member and know how to pray/minister to them. And for the members to know each other in the same way) then it is time to split into 2 bodies.
worm ~
I would love to get more info on this kind of thing. Honestly, I have not read or heard of anyone who talks like this. Today I talked to a friend who told me, with excitment, of the $3 million wing going onto their church in the spring. I just don't hear too many pastors talking like this. I guess it is because you have to have a "BIG" church to get your books published. :)
Hey guys. It's been a long time since I posted last, so I'll try not to get too ambitious here. I'm just intrigued by the appeal to past experiences, both here and on the 9Marks blog where the quote came from, to justify discrediting the mega-church model. Now, most of you know the cards in my hand, so I'm not going to wax sophisticated and pretend I know a mega-church model from an Amway pyramid scheme, but it seems to me that our inability to sustain biblically healthy "very large" churches is owing less to the fact that they're not sustainable and more to the fact that we are very immature as a Church in our understanding and practice of discipleship. Now, Steve, I don't know what you're up to these days, but Worm, I would wager you are part of one of the healthier churches that I am acquainted with and Shane, you think more about how to be biblically faithful in discipleship (and everything else, for that matter) than anybody I know, so already I'm overmatched here. But, I would be more interested in hearing you guys beat around ideas on how you could sustain a church of >200 or >500 or >1000 and do it faithfully, than to say the only biblically faithful churches I can imagine are small so, therefore, "Small Churches are Better". I think the fact that so many large churches were grown in unbiblical ways should not deter us from imagining very large and very faithful churches. For instance, Steve has commended Sunday School and/or Small Group Bible Studies (or whatever other name these groups go by). Shane commented, "Mega-churches have, in every case I know of, abandoned the roles of elders as being the primary teachers of truth in the congregation. Sunday School teachers in every church I have seen do not possess the calling and character that we see described in the pastoral epistles for elders yet we have given them the responsiblies of the elders." I think Shane has a very valid point, but I don't think it discredits Steve suggestion at all. I just think it means we should be far more intentional and thoughtful in establishing elders as group leaders. That's possible isn't it? Again, I'm rather over my head here, but it seems to me you may be shooting at the wrong target.
I understand what you are saying Brandon. But let’s say we have a mega church of 2,000. Now lets say we have 10 elders who meet qualifications. That’s 200 people per sunday school. I would think 200 members would need more than 1 elder.
Then I would say you need to exercise some serious church discipline and cut those numbers down! I mean, let's be realistic, of those 2,000 only 200 or so are true believers, anyway, right? So, 20 to 1 doesn't seem so unmanageable!
No, I'm just kidding with the sarcasm (I feel obligated to say that since you can't see the smile on my face). I don't really see that as a mega-church problem, though. If you split that church into ten smaller churches, you've still got the same problem - a 200 to 1 ratio. My answer would be that it's ultimately not our problem, if we're being faithful and discipling biblically. Either God gives our elders grace to oversee 200 sheep or God gives us more elders by his grace. Either way, it's God's problem. At some point, I think, we can trust Him to provide a way through that challenge for the mega-church and the small church.
And, to be frank, I don't see a real difference on the surface between a biblically faithful mega-church and a biblically faithful small church. If the church is growing because disciples are being made biblically, then a mega-church just looks like a bunch of small churches collected on Sundays to worship together. During the week, however, they are individually involved, under different elders, in their various communities. I just don't believe big vs. small is the real issue... and I don't think you guys really believe that, either.
Shane,are you saying only elders should teach? "Sunday School teachers in every church I have seen do not possess the calling and character that we see described in the pastoral epistles for elders yet we have given them the responsiblies of the elders." Or are you just saying that we are asking too much of Sunday school teachers?
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